Bang the Drum - Latest Comments in Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

SteveB — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:21:22 -0000

Your arguments are not well formed, and in some cases barely coherent, Hbeeinc, but I'll address them the best I can.
First off, my argument regarding the unjust war in Iraq was NOT in support of it. My argument addressed the logical duality of supporting abortion fights while condemning the war in Iraq. If you gave my comment anything more than a cursory glance you would see that at no point did I ever voice support of it.

So, you concede that "God creates babies and Jesus liked them, too." The only operable concept here is that babies still in the womb are indeed babies. As much as you are trying to pull this off topic, this discussion is whether or not Christians can morally justify their support of abortion rights, and so far the argument in favor of that is thin.

"If you cannot use your faith to reconcile yourself to the world, then what is the use of your faith? That's the whole POINT of religion"

This is a false statement where the Christian faith is concerned. I'll let Jesus' words answer you:

John15: 18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

As you can see, we Christians are NOT to reconcile ourselves to secular institutions, though in other places Jesus did acknowledge civic duties like paying taxes and obeying human rulers. This is one of the most significant and relevant statements Jesus ever made. Jesus was no populist. He was no demagogue. His only agenda was doing God's work.

I agree that the whole of the Bible should not be taken literally. (After all, Paul did say it was an abomination for women to speak in church, did he not?) Instead, it's a good practice in Bible study to accept concepts and doctrine that are agreed upon in no less than two places in the Bible, but preferably three. I am not "cherry picking," and how closed-minded of you to accuse me of it. In no circumstances would I classify the Bible as "mystical."

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

SteveB — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:17:25 -0000

And I thank you for your thoughtful responses. First off, don't confuse libertarianism with anarchism Libertarians still believe in penal law, and it SHOULD be illegal to kill a child. Did you ever wonder why a mother can legally choose to kill a child in her womb, but if she herself is murdered, resulting in the death of her unborn child, the perpetrator can be charged with double homicide? Talk about dichotomous.
I apologize if my tone was belittling or condescending. I did get a little passionate. Your logic is a bit flawed, but you show some critical thinking, you make intelligent arguments, and I encourage you to continue searching for truth; the truth of your God and savior, and I assure you I will do the same.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:41:19 -0000

I do think God views all forms of murder as sin. The question for me is whether I have the right to a) judge; and b) inject that judgment into a secular society via the constitution or laws. I say the two should remain separate; hence, my advocacy for a pro-choice stance. As an individual I would do whatever I could in a kind and helpful way to offer alternatives to abortion. Thus far, I've succeeded in that every time. And there have been more than a few. To me, this is a matter that the government does not and must not be party to. It is a matter of individual choice and conscience.

(all typos the fault of posting by blackberry)

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:33:26 -0000

Your tone belies the claim that you are interested in an academic discussion. It comes across as condescending, sarcastic, and belittling. Just as you find my worldview dichotomous, so too do I find your claim to be libertarian. True libertarians would never advocate government interference in matters of personal conscience. You are attempting to draw me into a battle of biblical hermeneutics where we will toss verses back and forth with increasingly sharp and sarcastic tone, never agree, and one or the other will abandon the effort.

Let me save us both the trouble. I do not agree with your tone or your interpretation. I do agree to disagree. If you leave the discussion thinking you have won something, that's fine with me. Your comments are here, anyone reading may make their own determination as to whether you have made a clear and convincing argument for your position and vice versa.

At the end of it all we will know whether we are both right, one is right, or we're both dead wrong. In the meantime we're both going to look ourselves in the mirror and accept what stares back.

Thank you for your comments.
Sent via BlackBerry

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Paul Day — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:21:47 -0000

but in Jeremiah 1:5 God says, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." Jesus' love of children and his admonition "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these." These verses are CLEAR evidence that God does not approve of abortions.

Um. No. It's not. It says that God creates babies and that Jesus liked them, too. Using those quotes to support that assertion is just plain ludicrous. Yes, I'm sure you can make some lovely rhetorical dance moves to "prove" that is does - but if you take a literal translation - no. It doesn't. (Odd, how the bible is "literal" when it's useful and "metaphorical" or "mystical" when that works better)

How do you NOT draw a moral equivalency between 2M babies and 2K soldiers? Do you honestly believe that one is ok to kill and the other isn't? Or are Iraqis only worth 3/5ths of an fetus? Seriously - did Jesus really draw distinction between the loss of ANY life.

If you cannot use your faith to reconcile yourself to the world, then what is the use of your faith? That's the whole POINT of religion - to make sense of a world that makes no sense - not to use religious texts to cherry pick "proof" for opinions that you want to pass off as God's.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

SteveB — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:22:16 -0000

I will continue to assert that nothing I have said is condemning. This is an academic discussion, and I'm trying to have a halfway intelligent exchange. Small-minded people often accuse others of intolerant thought to deflect reasonable criticism. I find it worthwhile to debate this with you primarily because you claim to be a Christian though your views seem to be firmly rooted in secular humanism...which I find quite dichotomous.

In the other thread you stated:

"for me, it all comes down to the one
that He gave in John 15: Love one another. Period. That's it. It supercedes
all of the others. Love. one. another."

I didn't see anything in John 15 that supports your belief that Jesus' command to love supercedes any other scripture. Funny, your Bible must only be one chapter long. Mine is over 2200 pages long. Neither Jesus, nor Paul or any of the apostles, nor any credible theologian today or of any other time would agree that this command you speak of negates even one single word in the rest of the Bible. In many circles you would be considered an 'a la carte Christian,' or someone who chooses only to practice those parts of the Bible which are palatable to them. If your Bible had more than one chapter, you could see that Jesus did address this belief in Matthew:

"17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven"

Surely in your Bible, Paul doesn't address beliefs like yours In Romans 6:

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

It IS possible to observe the command to Love while observing the rest of the Gospel, in fact it's mandatory. Nobody said it was easy. Jesus was killed because he made an 'intolerant' stand. he didn't rationalize worldly behavior or placate his enemies. I think you're under the illusion that to disagree with one's behavior is to condemn them. It is not. I am not against homosexuals, I am not against a balanced educational curriculum for our kids. Abortion is different than the other issues discussed in this forum because it involves an innocent, defenseless victim. Now I have genuine love and compassion for every human being on the earth, especially children. For these reasons, I could never, ever, EVER condone legalized abortion.
Now, if your only response is for me to "See my reply to your other message," then save your keystrokes. If you dismiss me as intolerant or condemning, I won't even bother to finish reading your response and you won't hear another word from me. If, on the other hand, you have anything intelligent to add to the fray, we can keep this thread open as long as you like.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Michael Markman (Mickeleh) — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 19:30:40 -0000

Vote on policy differences, I can respect you. Vote on a baldfaced lie tell me that a) that you are very gullible and b) paying attention to liars who shouldn't be believed. Now that Obama is elected, we'll have a very simple test on this matter. Just tune in to TV on Jan 20, 2008. If it turns out that no Koran is involved, will you apologize to us all for spreading lies.

BTW... supposing that he did choose to be sworn in on the Koran, why would that disqualify him?

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Paul Day — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 18:46:52 -0000

Just need to drive this point home that using your logic, Colin Powell is a racist, terrorst that is responsible for blowing up the Pentagon.

As to thanking, McCain for his service, yes, we should thank all of our solider Sadly, very few people in the bush administration defended our rights on the field of battle. Here's a partial list - George W. Bush, Andy Card, Karl Rove, John Ashcroft, Don Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Dick Cheney, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Brit Hume, William Bennet, Bill Kristol...THESE are people who could have served and chose not to. THESE are the people that sent our sons and daughters into a war without knowing first hand the actual hell of war.
Hastert, Gingrich, Lott, Delay

McCain was also pro-abortion before burying his beliefs to appease the far right wing of the party and radical small-c christians. Sorry. That's just a fact.

Perhaps you should stopping lying about the log in your own eye first.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:55:29 -0000

See my reply to your other message. Trying to put me in a box accomplishes
nothing. You cite Jeremiah; I cite Jesus' command in Matthew 15. If that
makes me a moral relativist by some bizarre twist of fate, so be it.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:54:21 -0000

Indeed, Jesus was clear. He was also clear as to who was to judge sin. It
wasn't us. It's not our job to point out the sin of others when we have
motes in our own eyes. Indeed, the clear message that Jesus brought was
forgiveness which He demonstrated, and then called us to respond to that by
demonstrating His love to others. Now you can argue all day long that this
command or that one applies here, but for me, it all comes down to the one
that He gave in John 15: Love one another. Period. That's it. It supercedes
all of the others. Love. one. another.

Loving one another means not pointing fingers at individuals or a group and
telling them they are sinning, or different, or unwelcome, or repugnant. If
you think that's moral relativism that's your problem.

Of COURSE I admit that abortion is sin. I think most people who have
abortions understand that on some basic level. I've seen women in deep pain
years later over their decision. Double-over bending pain, searing pain. I'm
certainly not going to stand back and point a finger at them and tell them
they're sinners. It's NOT my job, now or ever.

When you call me a moral relativist you're missing my point entirely. What I
pointed out here was the hypocrisy of the right's need to pass judgment on
people as some sort of higher authority, bypassing God's role in all of
that. And worse yet, (and back to the subject of my original blog post), the
McCain campaign figures the markets will sort themselves out, even for
people who don't have anything to go to market WITH.

Maybe if the social conservatives started behaving in the spirit of John 15
instead of like Pharisees, the message would become clear.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

SteveB — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:03:45 -0000

"If you model Jesus' conduct, you will not find justification for standing in judgement or condemnation of anyone"

More insanity! Jesus KNEW that the Jews were in sin, and He came so they might be FORGIVEN. Jesus knew that they would be sent to hell on the day of judgment if he did not come so they might be forgiven. How many times does Jesus command in the Gospels that they people he healed and forgave to GO AND SIN NO MORE? We as Christians are to show grace as Jesus did, but Jesus was very clear about what sin was and what sin wasn't.
You COULD make the argument that the government doesn't have the right to legislate morality, but I am wondering, could you at least admit that abortion is sin?

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

SteveB — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:33:19 -0000

You lost me, at what point did I justify the Iraqi War? What I DID do is refer to is as an UNJUST war, and state that your moral equivalency argument is intellectually dishonest. I made no judgment on the war, which I do not support.
My arguments are not self-serving, and are not disingenuous in the least. I could not be more clear and fair. You accuse simply because you disagree.
It's interesting that you can infer from my short comment above that for me "government is the ultimate judge." This is ludicrous because 1) the legality or illegality of abortion does not change my views of it, and 2) you have no basis to make such a reckless assumption of someone you don't know. I am in fact quite an individualist/libertarian.
In reference to abortion, you assert the live/let live argument, which only works when presented from a humanistic perspective. You, however, make this argument while professing some form of Christian faith, which puts you in a strange no-man's land of rational thought. IF you profess to be Christian, then you must believe the Bible. IF you believe the Bible, then you must agree that God recognizes life at conception because He says so in Jeremiah 1:15. IF you believe, like God, that a fetus is a person, then this person falls into the unfortunate category of not having an advocate. It's not about having the "constitution and government out of your vagina," it's about the rights of the weak and defenseless, for which Jesus was the greatest advocate. Following your line of reasoning, we should not prosecute any crimes on Earth, but instead wait for our judgment in the afterlife. Maybe you should tell us, what crimes, in your opinion, should be prosecuted on Earth, and which in heaven? And how do you decide?
In conclusion, there is nothing in either of my comments that is condemning, as you say, unless of course you think asserting the Bible is 'condemning.'

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Paul Day — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:53:03 -0000

One thing that constantly amazes me about little-c chrisitians is how they, against the religion they profess to believe in, have no qualms about lying to advance their agenda.

This email is pretty much debunked by snopes - http://www.snopes.com/polit...

What's truly evil (ie - anti-Christian) is the willful distortion of what Obama actually says -

'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'

If you, as a truth-seeking christian, bothered to check out the actual quote, you'd know that he's NOT talking about backing so-called "islamo-fascist terrorists". Rather, he's talking about standing up for the rights of Americans who are Muslims.

"Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

That's a lot different, isn't it.

In trying to pass off the first quote as something that "he himself wrote" you are lying. You have committed a sin of commission. Does Jesus really advocate this? No. He doesn't. I listen to a lot of radical evangelical radio. The amount of deception they practice is horrifying.

If Obama is a terrorist for hanging out with Ayers then Colin Powell is a terrorist for hanging out with Obama. So start condemning Colin Powell as a socialist and a terrorist. Otherwise, put away your insane need to demonize Obama.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:13:20 -0000

SteveB,

Your arguments are self-serving and disingenuous. This may shock you, but
one can be pro-choice and pro-life. All life.

You accuse me of intellectual dishonesty in the same paragraph that you
justify the murder of thousands of Iraqis and US troops? Wow, don't even try
to take me down the thought pathways you had to endure to get to that point.

For you, the government is the ultimate judge. For me, it's God. I'm willing
to live in a world where people have choices, just as Jesus also offered us
a choice, for the right to stand before God in the end and say that I worked
to reach out to those in need rather than subject them to condemnation on
earth, as you wish to do.

Good day.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

SteveB — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:01:31 -0000

You make a great point here. Your objective from the get-go is not advancing the Kingdom on earth, but to support B.O and advance your humanist agenda. You spout off about Jesus' command that we love one another, but in Jeremiah 1:5 God says, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." Jesus' love of children and his admonition "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these." These verses are CLEAR evidence that God does not approve of abortions. How can you make the moral equivalency argument equating the murder of 2 million babies a year in the US to an unjust war that has taken a few thousand lives? (You don't even take into account the murder and torture that Iraqis suffered under Saddam.) You are intellectually dishonest. You unfairly ask Christians to reconcile their faith to the world, but it cannot be done, and was never intended to be done.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

david — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:40:51 -0000

Your doctorine does hold ground "Sorry"

God loves you....God bless

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:11:43 -0000

And you miss the nuance: Being pro-life means raising my kids and
influencing my community to reject abortion as an option, not to put the
constitution and government in my vagina. Your indictment is the same as me
saying this:

IF you were really pro-life, you will not support McCain. McCain has, at
every turn possible, made clear his intention to murder and maim Iraqis,
Afghanis, and Iranians without compunction.

That statement is obviously as ridiculous as yours. But for the record, I
don't support McCain because he lied consistently throughout his campaign,
sold out his ethics and honor to get elected, and has no real solutions for
the economic crisis we are in.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

dskfjsdjfkl — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 23:41:11 -0000

One thing is clear to me after reading this; we all see things through the eyes that we want to see things through....I clearly see Obama as a liar, a cheat, a con artist and an absolute threat to the security of my family and the country Ilove. It is beyond my level of thinking how anyone who is led by the Spirit can find peace in voting for a man who attends a church for 20 years where its lead pastor boldly states "God Damn America." How can you find peace in voting for a man who lies about his intent for campaign financing, or his involvement with a man whho has blown up people and has an intense hatred for America? Even if Obama denies his associations with these peole, one must ask why are these extremists all attracted to him?

As for the Right to Life issue, you need to thank John McCain (and certainly not Obama) that he and others fought so that you and I have the right to express our views as we are doing right now. Freedom always comes with a price.

It has just been announced that Obama is our next president. My comfort and hope lie not in him, but in the fact that this occurence has been sifted through our sovereign God's hands....and may He have mercy on us all.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Tobias Davis — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:07:09 -0000

Look, I agree with you that Christians should not vote for McCain, but your title is deceptive: You never said why Christians should vote for Obama. Specifically, the very reasons you say that we should not vote for McCain are the same reasons that a Christian should not vote for Obama!

If you are really pro-life, you will not support Obama. Obama has, at every turn possible, made clear his intention to keep abortion as legal. If your reason to not support McCain is "because he is not pro-life", then you should also not support Obama.

http://www.prolifeblogs.com...

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:09:01 -0000

A well-stated argument. I enjoyed reading it very much, thank you for sharing the link.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Bob Robinson — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:27:21 -0000

I blogged something similar.
Reasons Why Evangelicals SHOULD Vote for Obama

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:43:18 -0000

Thank you, Chrisbabo. I agree with you, and appreciate your measured
response.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Chrisbabo — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:38:35 -0000

I am a Christian, and am a registered Republican. I love the previous post about being completely pro-life. I have come to see over the past few years that both parties have something to bring to the table of the abortion issue. I appreciate the Democrat position of abortion prevention and education, and I also appreciate the Republican's passion to see this heinous practice stopped. Looking very closely at both candidates, I have determined that both have flaws and I disagree with both candidates ideologically. But, I also agree with some of what each candidate stands for. I am still prayerfully deciding how I will cast my vote on Tuesday. But, I would like to leave this discussion with a small token of truth. Since there has been much accusation as to what a "REAL" Christian is. Jesus himself defined what a real follower was, and also exactly how you will know that they are a true follower of His. His words are so few, and yet say so much more: John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." I would caution we Christians, since most of us here identify as such, that as we present arguments, that we be careful that we are not only being respectful, but loving to one another, even if we disagree with them.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

Karoli — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:04:13 -0000

How about you vote for someone based on fact rather than idiotic rumors
that aren't true? Maybe we do need an intelligence test to vote...you
obviously forgot that facts actually do matter. Even John McCain wouldn't
speak the lie you just did.

Re: Why Evangelical Christians Should Vote for Obama

kathleen — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:52:13 -0000

I think that Christians should try harder to read the Bible and not be so ignorant in their supposed presentation of what the Word of God has to say.
When I am in that voting room I will take the time to pray for you as I vote for John McCain.
I will not vote for someone who wants to be sworn in under the Koran.