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I do think you underestimate the importance of the abortion issue, though, to Evangelicals. Same with homosexual rights. While you are able to reconcile these issues, I don't believe that you are necessarily the typical Evangelical.
It will be interesting to see where Evangelicals line up when all is said and done.
I believe that he is trying to serve the less fortunate by protecting them (with military strength) and preserving their ability to achieve success (reducing size of government and government interference).
You have to at least admit that McCain acts on his beliefs. He does not put his finger in the wind and make decision based on popular opinion--I believe he does what he think is right. Because of this he has been heavily criticized by his own party--I voted against him in the primaries--but he did not change his positions because of this criticism. Whether or not you or I agree with his positions, I think you have to at least concede that it demonstrates integrity.
However, I suggest you do some research on the following keywords:
Rod Blagojevich
Friends of Blagojevich
Operation Board Games
Tony Rezko
Grove Parc Plaza
Allison Davis
Nadhmi Auchi
Richard M. Daley
David Axelrod
Patronage
Hired Truck Program
I'll stop at that. Moral bankruptcy? If that's the benchmark, the candidate from Chicago's machine should throw up a few red flags in your mind. That's only if you're willing to acknowledge Chicago before November 2, of course.
Are Chicago politics rough-and-tumble? You betcha. So goes the political landscape everywhere. What I am saying is that there is a clear record to point at, both in Illinois as well as the Senate, that indicates a commitment to what Obama promises, and a consistent message.
The only exception I've seen thus far is FISA and while I'm not thrilled with it, I'm also disinclined to condemn him for the vote, given that taking a stand against it would have been tantamount to political suicide.
I thought, though, that Christians should be IN the world not OF the world, not the reverse as you note above.
But what do I know? I'm not a Christian.
Can you offer me some specifics? Also, I'd like to understand more clearly
how you reconcile outright lies to the public with traditional values.
I (heart) Jesus
You cannot be a Christian and vote for Obama
Wow. So now we've decided for everyone? What ever happened to the beauty of free choice God has given humanity?
I'm off to write a post about this.
the dogmatic and extreme segment of Christianity is hijacking reasonable
debate in favor of pronouncements like that. I can only remember "judge
not, lest you be judged..." and wonder why they don't?
First let's start out by qouting from his own words that anyone can get in to heaven,which blatantly goes against the word of god because the only way to heaven is the way the truth and light,(being jesus) and no one can go to the father exept thru me! Second to him abortion is a ok, Obama said in April that if his young daughters got pregnant out of wedlock, he didn’t want them to be “punished with a baby.” In other words, he wants the abortion industry to thrive.When does it come to the point that we as people take responsibilaty for our mistakes,but then again why should we our society teaches us everyday how to blame it on others and which way is the easiest way out! That's why anyone who is a true born again christian should Not vote for obama
Evangelical Christians Stand absolutely NO CHANCE of advancing consistent principles of Christianity if Barak Obama and Joe Biden win the election! Having read your reasonings as put forth in this article,I've come to the conclusion that there is NO WAY your position is supported by Biblical thought.
My prayer is that your heart, as well as the heart of others who are deceived by Senator Obama's enticing words will be brought to the Truth. Looking past Biblical positions on the items you've mentioned above, it's enough for me that Muslim extremists WANT Barak Obama to win. That, in itself says A LOT!
From Dreams of My Father: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'
From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessar y to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'
From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
I might not be evangical but I'm a Christian and this makes me sick
actually reads the quotes you left in context like an adult, you discover
that they are neither unpatriotic, unamerican or particularly shocking. And
at least he tells the truth, which is something your candidate does not and
cannot do. so save the trolling for someone who cares.
This email is pretty much debunked by snopes - http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ownwords.asp
What's truly evil (ie - anti-Christian) is the willful distortion of what Obama actually says - If you, as a truth-seeking christian, bothered to check out the actual quote, you'd know that he's NOT talking about backing so-called "islamo-fascist terrorists". Rather, he's talking about standing up for the rights of Americans who are Muslims.That's a lot different, isn't it.
In trying to pass off the first quote as something that "he himself wrote" you are lying. You have committed a sin of commission. Does Jesus really advocate this? No. He doesn't. I listen to a lot of radical evangelical radio. The amount of deception they practice is horrifying.
If Obama is a terrorist for hanging out with Ayers then Colin Powell is a terrorist for hanging out with Obama. So start condemning Colin Powell as a socialist and a terrorist. Otherwise, put away your insane need to demonize Obama.
Just in case there's any doubt, you can find your rumor debunked at http://factcheck.org.
Good luck with that.
When considering who to support I ask 'does the candidates’ budget and tax policies reward the rich or show compassion for poor families? Do their foreign policies include fair trade and debt cancellation for the poorest countries?'
(Matthew 25:35-40, Isaiah 10:1-2)
I believe that the environment–caring for God’s earth is a Christian Value.
When considering who to support I ask 'does the candidates’ policies protect the creation or serve corporate interests that damage it?'
(Genesis 2:15, Psalm 24:1)
I believe that war–and our call to be peacemakers is a Christian Value.
When considering who to support I ask 'does the candidates’ policies pursue “wars of choice” or respect international law and cooperation in responding to real global threats?'
(Matthew 5:9)
I believe that our response to terrorism is a Christian Value.
When considering who to support I ask 'do the candidates adopt the dangerous language of righteous empire in the war on terrorism and
confuse the roles of God, church, and nation? Do the candidates see evil only in our enemies but never in our own policies?'
(Matthew 6:33, Proverbs 8:12-13)
I believe that a consistent ethic of human life is a Christian Value.
When considering who to support I ask 'does the candidates’ positions on global starvation, abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, weapons of mass destruction, HIV/AIDS—and other pandemics—and genocide around the world obey the biblical injunction to choose life?
(Deuteronomy 30:19)
Based on the Christian Values I have stated above, Obama is the only choice for me. Do not get me wrong, abortion is a sad and terrible thing. I, like Obama, do not believe making abortion illegal is an appropriate answer to the problem. Addressing hearts and minds and all the societal issues that happen before someone ends up on the steps of an abortion clinic is where my passions lie and where my Christian Values are held. A book written by Ron Sider many years ago called 'Completely Pro-Life' better describes my position on this than I can. I mean, one cannot say they are 'pro-life' and singly care about abortion. There are approximately 800,000 abortions a year in the US. There are 17 million children that die yearly of starvation in Africa ALONE. Why is the Christian community not up in arms about this.........I could go on, but I'll stop. Am I pro-life, absolutely. But I am COMPLETELY PRO-LIFE, I care about preserving human life worldwide and confronting many more issues than just abortion.
So yes, based on all the values I listed above, Obama if elected would be the first president in my lifetime that represents my faith and Christian Values. Obama walked down the church aisles and fell on his knees at the altar accepting Christ as his Lord and savior just like me. He then worked out his faith while working in urban ministry valiantly fighting social justice issues just like me, though I did not grow up traveling the globe as he did, our faith and passion for global issues of genocide and poverty have ended up on the same page. We share a mentor in faith and politics - Jim Wallis. The difference is, Obama is a personal friend of Jim's and I have only met Jim on a few occasions and have gone to his conferences and read his books 'The Soul of Politics' and 'God's Politics.' Read those books and you will get the scope of how I define Christian Values.
Thank you for making the case for true Christian values and how they fit with Barack Obama's vision for the future of our country. Your points are far more eloquent and powerful than mine.
Sent via BlackBerry, a miracle invented by John McCain.
I cannot Vote for a man who out rightly lies about his religon and his faith. He claims he is a christian but yet he plays luke warm with Gods words by not standing up for what the bible declares as truth.
"lying to the country in order to achieve personal objectives is unchristian, immoral, and shouldn’t be rewarded, particularly by evangelical Christians" I coulnt have said it myself better about Barack.
Anyone who does not recognize Jesus as the only way to heaven is NOT a christian no matter what they claim..this specific fruit is rotten to the core. "Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man can come to the Father but by Me."
I guess his Bible is different from mine. Or maybe he doesn't think Jesus actually meant what he said. Or maybe he thinks that Jesus is wrong. Or (*gasp*) MAYBE he's just saying what people want him to say.
Look at his old church...they are completely racist agains white people.
He is for homosexual marraiges. If Barack Obama is elected president, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) will support him in fulfilling his vow to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which currently protects states from having to recognize same-sex marriages contracted in other states as they ordinarily would be required to do by the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution.
The “pride” section of the Obama campaign Web site reads: “Obama also believes we need to fully repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions.” What kind of CHRISTIAN man will support same sex marraiges that God's word states is wrong and Gods word does not change. God is the same yesterday, today, and tommorow.
Here are some verses for scripture that prove Gods oppionion on homosexual marraiges.
Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. [NIV]
Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. [NIV
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. [NIV)
Romans 1:26-27 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. [27] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. [NIV]
Cor. 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders [10] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [NIV]
First God created men and women to be married to each other, to become one in Christ. That means the man is enhanced and fulfilled by his wife and the wife is enhanced and fulfilled by her husband. This was and still is God's plan for men and women. Secondly God calls homosexual acts detestable. In another place He tells us that the wicked practice such things and that they will have no inheritance in His kingdom. In another He calls homosexual relations shameful and unnatural.
He also has a portion to do with this finantical chrisist we are in. Yet he steps in like the hero to this delima....and makes republicans look compleatly responsible for it.
The following is a condensation of a series from the Investor's Business Daily explaining 'What Caused the Loan Crisis':
1977: Pres. Jimmy Carter signs into Law the Community Reinvestment Act the foundation and cornerstone for the impending disaster. The law pressured financial institutions to extend home loans to those who would otherwise not qualify.
The publicized premise: Home ownership would improve poor and crime-ridden communities and neighborhoods in terms of crime, investment, jobs, etc.
The Results: Statistics bear out that it did not help.
How did the government get so deeply involved in the housing market?
Answer: Bill Clinton wanted it that way!
1992: Republican representative Jim Leach (IO) warned of the danger that Fannie and Freddie were changing from being agencies of the public at large to money machines for the principals and the stock-holding few.
1993: Clinton extensively rewrote Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's rules turning the quasi-private mortgage-funding firms into semi-nationalized monopolies dispensing cash and loans to large Democratic voting blocks and handing favors, jobs and contributions to political allies. This potent mix led inevitably to corruption and now the collapse of Freddie and Fannie.
1994: Despite warnings, Clinton unveiled his National Home-Ownership Strategy, which broadened the CRA in ways congress never intended.
1995: Congress, about to change from a Democrat majority to Republican. Clinton orders Robert Rubin's Treasury Dept to rewrite the rules. Robt. Rubin's Treasury reworked rules, forcing banks to satisfy quotas for sub-prime and minority loans to get a satisfactory CRA rating. The rating was key to expansion or mergers for banks. Loans began to be made on the basis of race and little else.
1997 - 1999: Clinton, bypassing Republicans in Congress, enlisted Andrew Cuomo, then Secretary of Housing and Urban Dev elopement, allowing Freddie and Fannie to get into the sub-prime market in a BIG way. Led by Rep. Barney Frank and Sen. Chris Dodd, congress doubled down on the risk by easing capital limits and allowing them to hold just 2.5% of capital to back their investments vs. 10% for banks. Since they could borrow at lower rates than banks their enterprises boomed.
With incentives in place, banks poured billions in loans into poor communities, often 'no doc', 'no income', requiring no money down and no verification of income. Worse still was the cronyism: Fannie and Freddie became home to out-of work-politicians, mostly Clinton Democrats. 384 politicians got big campaign donations from Fannie and Freddie. Over $200 million had been spent on lobbying and political activities. During the 1990's Fannie and Freddie enjoyed a subsidy of as musch as $182 Billion, most of it going to principal s and shareholders, not poor borrowers as claimed.
Did it work? Minorities made up 49% of the 12.5 million new homeowners but many of those loans have gone bad and the minority homeownership rates are shrinking fast.
1999: New Treasury Secretary, Lawrence Summers, became alarmed at Fannie and Freddie's excesses. Congress held hearings the ensuing year but nothing was done because Fannie and Freddie had donated millions to key congressmen and radical groups, ensuring no meaningful changes would take place. 'We manage our political risk with the same intensity that we manage our credit and interest rate risks,' Fannie CEO Franklin Raines, a former Clinton official and current Barack Obama advisor, bragged to investors in 1999.
2000: Secretary Summers sent Undersecretary Gary Gensler to Congress seeking an end to the 'special status'. Democrats raised a ruckus as did Fannie and Freddie, headed by politically connected CEO's who knew how to reward and punish. 'We think that the statements evidence a contempt for the nation's housing and mortgage markets' Freddie spokesperson Sharon McHale said. It was the last chance during the Clinton era for reform.
2001: Republicans try repeatedly to bring fiscal sanity to Fannie and Freddie but Democrats blocked any attempt at reform; especially Rep. Barney Frank and Sen.Chris Dodd who now run key banking committees and were huge beneficiaries of campaign contributions from the mortgage giants.
2003: Bush proposes what the NY Times called 'the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago'. Even after discovering a scheme by Fannie and Freddie to overstate earnings by $10.6 billion to boost their bonuses, the Democrats killed reform.
2005: Then Fed chairman Alan Greenspan warns Congress: 'We are placing the total financial system at substantial risk'. Sen. McCain, with two others, sponsored a Fannie/Freddie reform bill and said, 'If congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole'. Sen. Harry Reid accused the GOP ;of trying to 'cripple the ability of Fannie and Freddie to carry out their mission of expanding homeownership' The bill went nowhere.
2007: By now Fannie and Freddie own or guarantee over HALF of the $12 trillion US mortgage market. The mortgage giants, whose executive suites were top-heavy with former Democratic officials, had been working with Wall St. to repackage the bad loans and sell them to investors. As the housing market fell in '07, subprime mortgage portfolios suffered major losses. The crisis was on, though it was 15 years in the making.
2008: McCain has repeatedly called for reforming the behemoths, Bush urged reform 17 times. Still the media have repeated Democrats' talking points about this being a 'Republican' disaster. A few Republicans are complicit but Fannie and Freddie were created by Democrats, regulated by Democrats, largely run by Democrats and protected by Democrats. That's why taxpayers are now being asked for $700 billion!!
If you doubt any of this, just click the links below and listen to your lawmakers' own words. They are condemning!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68D9XrqyrWo&feat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIgqfM5C8lY#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9juJr8CSY4&feat...
Postscript: ACORN is one of the principlal beneficiaries of Fannie/ Freddie's slush funds. They are currently under indictment or investigation in many states. Barack Obama served as their legal counsel, defending their activities for several years.
But my main reasoning for not voting for him and mind you i was undecided till just recently is the fact that he claims to be something he is not. A christian. If he didnt claim to be a christian and supported these things he would have a better shot at getting my vote but I cannot stand a liar and I will not vote for someone who is playing all sides.. to me he is stating whatever ppl want to here so they will vote for him. Just sorta seems like he believes that we all serve the same God...to me that seems like it is some of his so long ago forgotten muslim teachings.
His position on how to fix this finantial crisis i dont agree with...Not that i dont think that the rich should get taxed more heavily cause i do....but what do you think will happen when that bill is passed. The rich own everything. from the food, the stores we shop at, all the big buisnesses..they own everything we need to survive...what do you think they will do if there taxes go up...I think they will raise the prices of there products to cover the price of there taxes...and then the middle and poor class ppl will be stuck paying even more then we are now. paying for Obamas bill while he sits in his white house. No thankyou.
Sent via BlackBerry, a miracle invented by John McCain.
If you don't want to vote for a black guy, don't. But don't disguise that choice as some sort of righteous act.
"If you don't want to vote for a black guy, don't. But don't disguise that choice as some sort of righteous act."
who is judgeing now. You are basically calling me a rascist. I am not voting for him because he is black..I dont care about the color of his skin. I am not voting for him because I dont see things his way..i dont see how many ppl go to heaven, i see only the ones who belelive in jesus christ going to heaven since the scripture state that.
Your response about ppls oppinions seem to follow a pattern of you saying we are all judging.. So because your oppinion differese on Mccain then I guess you are judging him also. Now is this thread you added your own personal oppionion or is it proven fact. Yes small companies do play a part in it..i never said they didnt... the whole point to the fannie and freddie thing is to say..that not just Repulicans and mccain made things this way..that Democrates had there part and so did Obama.
Additionally, you are correct that we are not called to judge; but that is not the same as condoning sinful behavior.
I would encourage all Christian voters to be prepared to give an answer for the position you take, and let it be one that you are able to stand before God someday and not be ashamed of.
Respectfully submitted.
Obama's stance on Israel is the same as it always has been -- a staunch
defender. There is really no reason for any good evangelical Christian to
worry at all about his stance on Israel (not to mention the fact that Israel
is quite capable of defending its own bad self). Further, your concerns
about Iran have been stoked by the warmongers who think it's a good idea to
saber-rattle with a country that has not threatened us, or Israel in any way
other than the usual stupid harsh rhetoric.
If we decided to shoot at everyone who used tough words, there would be some
folks at Palin rallies ducking for cover, after all.
PEOPLE WE NEED TO PRAY FOR OUR PRESIDENT WHO EVER HE MAY BE! GOD CAN WORK THROUGH EITHER MAN. IF HE CAN WORK THROUGH TWO HARLOTS HE CAN WORK THROUGH THESE MEN!
GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU! DELIVER A MESSAGE OF PEACE, LOVE, HOPE, AND HOPE BUT LETS NOT FORGET WHAT WE ARE HERE TO DO. TELL THE TRUTH OF GODS WORD, HIS GOSPEL, SAVING GRACE AND NOT BE ASHAMED OF IT.
http://www.christianadc.org/pages/page.asp?page...
Biblical admonition to judge not, lest ye be judged?
But the main point of my post to you is to address this "liberal Christian" view about "judging not lest ye be judged"...the most mis-used phrase in the entire world. Before quoting the Bible, I recommend reading the ENTIRE passage you are referring to, and not just what fits your agenda....allow me to assist you.
The text you refer to is Matthew 7:1, however verses 2-5 casts an ENTIRE different light on the meaning of this text.
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
We are called as Christians to use RIGHTEOUS judgment, to call sin SIN. The intent of this verse is NOT as liberals would use it..."we make no judgments on anyone, everyone should follow their own way, it's not my place to decide right/wrong"...BULL!!!!! Christ NEVER sugar-coated sin, and he NEVER condoned it!!! Yes, Christ was full of compassion, but show me 1 example in scripture where sin abounded, and Christ did NOT condemn it. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
Verse 1 about "judge not that you be not judged" was warning to those judging unrighteously...they were doing the very things or worse they condemned others of doing...it's just another example of scripture out of context. We are to measure EVERYTHING against scripture, and we NEVER turn a blind eye to sin!
Her's some more scripture references to back up my point...notice Jesus' words in John 7:24....
1Cor. 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints [the saved; Christians] will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Prov. 3:21 My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment, do not let them out of your sight;
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Jer. 22:3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness...
Phil. 1:10 so that you may be able to discern [judge] what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ...
Phil. 1:7 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you [judge you]...
I read your comments about Obama/Israel...it's actually a hard subject to research, because he flip/flops based on who his audience is...but here's a quote that is very telling:
"Well, obviously, it's going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues. And Jerusalem will be part of those negotiations," Obama told CNN when asked whether Palestinians had no future claim to the city.
He had made statements that he supported Israel's claim to their capital city Jerusalem (a Christian, biblical view) and then backtracked his statement when he realized he had angered the Palestinians.
In the end I hope everyone realizes that the 1 and only way to Heaven is through Jesus. You need to be in a solid Bible based church that teaches out of the Word of God.
haven't met me, you don't know my heart and you don't know what I have and
haven't done. It's really easy in the age of the Internet to pull a few
scriptures out and use them to justify a zealot position. Yet Jesus
preached against Pharisees and zealots, calling us to a higher purpose, one
borne out of love, not anger, not hate.
I am sure you are strong and firm in what you believe, as am I. I am not
going to engage in out-of-context verse-tossing with you for the high
ground. You've made your point; you have your vote.
I have cast mine for Barack Obama and encourage others to do the same,
particularly if they claim to be followers of Christ.
You're opinions are not based on scripture, just your feelings. I have explained the verse you used out of context, and why you used it out of context, as I could to explain your incorrect views on abortion, but you are not interested in that.
You say "Obama does not support abortion"....give us a break...really. What would you prefer to call it, "the woman's right to decide"? There are a dozen bible verses that point to the fact that God views life as starting from conception. I can give you verses if that would help. This "right to decide" as liberals have labelled MURDER is an abomination in God's eyes. Liberals have used tragic acts, such as rape/incest, to justify their position, but God never allows justification of 1 sin because of another. There are absolutes, morals, right/wrong.
You mentioned pharisees...think of the story of the prostitute that they brought before Jesus. She was caught in the act, guilty, and they wanted her killed for it. Jesus showed compassion, while at the same time condemning the sin. He did not defend her as innocent, but he told them, you without sin cast the first stone. He showed her compassion by not carrying out her punishment, but then what was his command to her? "Go and sin no more." He didn't tell her "I won't judge you, I'll just have compassion. Just do what you want to do, I'm a loving God." He told her, "sin no more". There is the difference between us, I would never in my life condemn a woman who had an abortion, but unlike you, I will not try to justify it as okay.
The bible tells us that "My sheep here My voice and the follow Me". How do we hear God's voice to us? Through His word, there is NO other way. Yes, God may use people to communicate His providential will and message, but it will NEVER contradict what He has given us in scripture. If we don't have a firm desire to study scripture and follow Christ, our fruit speaks for itself. Many will say in the end "Lord I did all these great things in your Name" and He will tell them to depart, because He NEVER knew them.
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a jerk, it's not my intent. Perhaps my emotions come out too much, but I must be firm. This is what the Bible tells us, and unlike what liberal Christians would have us believe, there is a Right/Wrong, there are absolutes, and God does NOT condone sin.
Correction is not judgment, as the Bible says that we should correct, rebuke and be bold to those who are sinning. It is to be done in an act of caring for them in the hope that they will believe. That way we could contribute to the saving of a soul. If we don't, we could be responsible for suppressing the truth which could mean eternal death instead of eternal life for that person. "James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Where the Bible says do not judge, it could therefore mean judging whether someone is born again or not born again. This is because in doubtful cases only God can be the judge of this. The form of judgment that this verse says not to do could also be referring to a form of judgment that a person makes when they despise a sinner, while at the same time believing that they are worthy themselves. We should only correct in a humble way as an act of love. The Bible indicates to boldly correct people in an effort to bring them to repentance. We could say that someone may be eternally separated from God to spur them to repentance. But to say that someone is definitely saved or that they will be eternally separated from God would be wrong. "Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)" There is no judgment yet. God performs the judgment at the end of the age.
We should not judge doubtful things or things by appearance but we are still meant to make righteous judgment on things that are clear in the Bible if we don't willfully do them.
Jesus and the Apostles were very bold and rebuked and condemned evil. They even openly rebuked people in the church for doing evil, in order to strengthen the church. There were examples when even physical force was used to correct them. In Nehemiah 13:25, Nehemiah cursed, struck and pulled out the hair of the Jews who rebelled by having pagan wives. There were other incidences where he forced people to stop lending money at interest, (Nehemiah 5:10-13) and threatened people for breaking the Sabbath (Nehemiah 13:19-21). Nehemiah forced people to do the right thing. Jesus Also overturned the tables of the moneychangers in the temple (Matthew 21:12-13).
Rebuking a sinner, exposing corruption, correcting someone in love or disciplining ones children is not judging wrongfully. If so, Jesus and the Apostles who were our example to follow would have been in error. I believe that the Devil is lying to people to convince them that Biblical correction is judging. Therefore, many believe that it is fine to go on sinning and not obey God by warning others. This is the opposite of the example set by the Apostles. People are more likely to take note and remember strong stirring words. Strong words cause people to repent and not remain lukewarm. Bold ministry can turn people off but they would probably turn away anyway and be considered by God to be lukewarm. Therefore, they probably would have been rejected by God anyway. In the Bible people mostly either turned well away or became committed believers.
"1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
2 Timothy 4:2 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
If we don't warn someone in error to turn from evil, we are partly responsible. "Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."
The disciples offended many, were put in prison and were killed for their bold testimony, but they also won many to God. The people they influenced were more committed than most today, as the bold testimony of the Apostles example motivated them to put their life right. Should we be saying something like the above to the people of today?
I think that your idea of the biblical admonition to judge not, lest ye be judged has been taken out of context. I am not judging this man, I am simply looking at his actions, deeds, and views to see if they fit the biblical principles, simply doing as the bible says we as chrisitans should, we are to judge a mans fruits, to test the spirit of the doctrine he proclaims. This you should now. Being a christian your self.
If a man is convicted because he kills someone and says it was out of self defense, should the courts just say oh ok we believe you...or should they send him to trial and let the jury desern,test , his testomoney to see if he is guilty or not.
Regardless of this one sided statement you have brought to me, you forget that i am not against the man him self. That I don't judge him or hate him, I am marrily using God's written word to see if his faith stands up to it. Which to me and many other christian denominations it does not. Do not forget that I say pray for him either way...for if he is our brother it is good to pray for our brothers and sisters, if not well then we need pray all the more. If he takes presidency he will need as much prayer as we he can get for the state America is in.
I suspect that most of the heat coming to me on this post is the product of legslistic and narrow thinking, where one issue (whether race or philosophy) overrides what ought to be the main concern; namely, loving one another as Christ loves us.
Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? (Job 31:15).
Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God. (Psalm 22:9-10).
Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked (Psalm 82:3-4).
Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say, "But we knew nothing about this," does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? (Proverbs 24:11-12).
Barack Obama is not pro-abortion. What he says, and yes, it IS nuanced, is that it is not the place of government to ban OR mandate abortion, that the real place of government is in the area of public health education to prevent unwanted pregnancy. Whether or not you agree with his stance on choice, I think everyone can agree that education and prevention is the first, best line of defense.
If you live in the real world, you know that a ban on abortion imposed by the government will not stop them from happening. It will likely place women at risk of being victimized, however.
Until my last dying breath, I will oppose abortion. However, my opposition will take the form of compassion toward women considering it, and assistance toward an alternative that enables them to turn from it, without the heavy hand of the government involved.
If you are a Christian, which you say you are and I don't know you so I take you at your word, where in the bible does God tells us He wants to be included in everything we do EXCEPT for the laws that we make for our country. Are you listening to yourself??
Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Many of our founding fathers were Christians. For a Christian to tell me that we should not build our societal laws based on the scripture that our God gave us is ABSURD!!!!! I can at least understand an atheist arguing that point....but for someone to believe scripture was given to us by God, and then to say we don't want God's laws meddling with our laws.....UNBELIEVABLE!! Look at the consequences in the bible of nations that went astray from God's provision and commands. The path leads to destruction EVERY TIME.
Let me ask you a question.
Where does your morality come from? We can probably agree it's from God.
Where does our shame come from? Our sin, right?
Do animals have morality/shame? They kill each other, they have no laws, other than survival. They do not have a sense of right/wrong like we do.
Why is that? Because God GAVE us a spiritual compass inside to KNOW right/wrong, and to follow it.
What morality should our laws be based on? There is NONE outside of God. Without God, there is no right/wrong, there is no morality. There is survival, that is it. The more God is removed from our nation, the worse we will become. Abortion, homosexuality....they are prophesied about for our days. The further and further the liberal left take us away from God, the less and less there will be a sense of right/wrong in this country, the more gray area there becomes.
Why do you not go down to the bank and rob it? Afraid of getting caught, no doubt....but I bet you also feel that it is morally wrong. God gave you that morality to decide that. but look at the mantra of the liberal left....we make no judgments on anyone. There is no absolute right/wrong, only what's right in your eyes.
You cannot, as a Christian, believe it's okay to take God out of more and more of our society, and then NOT think there will be adverse consequences..
Homosexuality, for example. There were homosexuals in Jesus' time. Yet, I cannot find one single place in all the Gospels or Acts where he preached against them. Nor do I see a place where he called any of his followers to judge them.
I obviously believe that Christians have the responsibility to act within their society, and that includes voting. If I didn't, I wouldn't have written a post like this or any other.
But political involvement should not rest on a single issue. As an example, why aren't you outraged that Senator McCain does not support sChip, a law that allows those now-born children to have decent healthcare? Should we simply ban abortion and consign those now-born and likely underprivileged and poor kids to suffer? Why?
What responsibility do we have, as Christian individuals, to show care and compassion to women who find themselves contemplating abortion? Wouldn't our roles be better served for Christ by coming to them where they are and giving them support and comfort as we encourage them to consider other options? Isn't our role in society to care for, not condemn others?
When the argument is made that a vote for Sen McCain is a vote for life, I'm mystified by the logic, when his words and voting record indicate that his regard for those lives diminishes at birth, when he doesn't support any assistance for those lives, when he supports the death of those sons and daughters in a war for oil and man's greed, while turning a blind eye to the genocide in Darfur at the same time that he extols a corrupt and greedy government in Iraq.
In politics, it becomes a question of weighing the candidates as a whole. I find Sen McCain lacking on far too many issues of concern to me and to people who are just trying to get by without losing their minds, homes, or lives.
Matthew 19:4-5 -- 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
To say that, since Jesus didn't say "homosexuality is wrong", then he was okay with it, is just wrong. He doesn't mention rape either...but we aren't going to pretend he was okay with that.
While Jesus doesn't specifically address homosexuality, many of his prophets did, including Paul, who wrote a great portion of the new testament. Paul clearly preaches that it's sin.
Like then, there are still zealots. And they do not serve the cause of Christianity well, particularly when blended with politics.
Listen to Jesus' words in Luke 17...
Luke 17:3-4: "Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."
Not passing judgment on one who has aborted a child is biblical. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We are all guilty of the law. However, we DO judge righteously, we DO call sin what it is. This is what Christ did, all with compassion towards sinners, wanting them to repent and turn from their wicked ways....not continue in them.
5For(I) if we have been united with him in(J) a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that(K) our old self[a](L) was crucified with him in order that(M) the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
More insanity! Jesus KNEW that the Jews were in sin, and He came so they might be FORGIVEN. Jesus knew that they would be sent to hell on the day of judgment if he did not come so they might be forgiven. How many times does Jesus command in the Gospels that they people he healed and forgave to GO AND SIN NO MORE? We as Christians are to show grace as Jesus did, but Jesus was very clear about what sin was and what sin wasn't.
You COULD make the argument that the government doesn't have the right to legislate morality, but I am wondering, could you at least admit that abortion is sin?
wasn't us. It's not our job to point out the sin of others when we have
motes in our own eyes. Indeed, the clear message that Jesus brought was
forgiveness which He demonstrated, and then called us to respond to that by
demonstrating His love to others. Now you can argue all day long that this
command or that one applies here, but for me, it all comes down to the one
that He gave in John 15: Love one another. Period. That's it. It supercedes
all of the others. Love. one. another.
Loving one another means not pointing fingers at individuals or a group and
telling them they are sinning, or different, or unwelcome, or repugnant. If
you think that's moral relativism that's your problem.
Of COURSE I admit that abortion is sin. I think most people who have
abortions understand that on some basic level. I've seen women in deep pain
years later over their decision. Double-over bending pain, searing pain. I'm
certainly not going to stand back and point a finger at them and tell them
they're sinners. It's NOT my job, now or ever.
When you call me a moral relativist you're missing my point entirely. What I
pointed out here was the hypocrisy of the right's need to pass judgment on
people as some sort of higher authority, bypassing God's role in all of
that. And worse yet, (and back to the subject of my original blog post), the
McCain campaign figures the markets will sort themselves out, even for
people who don't have anything to go to market WITH.
Maybe if the social conservatives started behaving in the spirit of John 15
instead of like Pharisees, the message would become clear.
First off, to justify 1 immorality with another "seemingly" worse is somewhat apalling. I fail to see how my belief that abortion is murder and sin means that I don't care about dieing children around the world.
On the contrary, I support 2 children, 1 in Brazil, 1 in Africa financially, which provides food/clothing/shelter/schooling and biblical teaching. I also support a family member on the mission field in Mongolia financially. I do a small part, and wish I could do more to save the millions dieing of starvation, but I assure you, I will do whatever it is that I can that God leads me to do. It's heartbreaking to see the hunger/pain and hurt that our world is facing, and we as Christians should collectively step up to assist those helpless and hurting, and that does NOT exclude the mass genocide of unborn children going on in our own country.
Please humor me with answering this question: What if only the Bible legislated our entire nation? What if what we believe as Christians completely took over every law? What do you think will be the national (and world) reaction to this? If this sounds extreme, then exactly at what point do you draw the line where there is "enough" Christianity in our nation's laws and policies? Do you blame politicians for taking God "out" of our country, or the Church for not doing enough to keep God "in" the country?
I am completely for winning a lost world to Christ, and I'm not sure if laws and policies are the best way of "winning" people over to this. Just curious about your thoughts to the above questions.
Let me show you what the Bible says about those that turn from God in Romans 1...
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Notice verse 21...they GLORIFIED HIM NOT as God....how do we "Glorify Him NOT"?? by NOT following his commandments....
by NOT following God's commandments, look at what became of those individuals.
Sure we cannot mandate every sin become a law. Everyone would be in jail, right? We have all sinned... but when we, as a country, start to sacrific God's moral laws, and move ever closer to the gray area of no judgments...no morality...turning away from God....These VERY verses in Romans 1 is what we are moving towards.
up, as is mine. We will not change one another's minds. Both sides of the
argument have been clearly stated for those who may not have made up theirs.
Peace.
I truly believe it's time for those of us who lean toward doing rather than
judging to speak up. The hijacking of caring for one another as our first
command needs to end. While I respect anyone who is willing to argue their
position from an intellectually honest and fair place, I am unwilling to
remain silent on what I view as an astonishing focus on the unborn with very
little focus on those who are born, and who must live in this crazy
upside-down world we inhabit.
At some point, we'll know whether one or the other of us was right and why. Or else we'll discover we both have it wrong. I'm grateful to be forgiven for those instances.
Someone above mentioned concern about "advancing consistent principles of Christianity." That is not what the business of government is about. Rather, we must specifically refrain from throwing our religion around government. By putting so much emphasis on religion in our government leaders, we're just setting up an environment ripe for another religion to come in and overthrow the religion we put in power. Think about it.
So, back to the point of abortion. We, as Christians, would be better served fighting abortion on the education and poverty fronts, and not the government front. I don't like abortion. I don't want anyone to have an abortion. By the same token, I don't want government telling me or anyone else they cannot have an abortion. Reversing Roe v. Wade will not take away people's ability to get an abortion. It would just just create one more hurdle.
Marie, according to your logic, I could make the following conclusions...
Have you ever stolen anything in your life? Yes? Then stealing should be legal, and you should not oppose it, because you are guilty and have done it yourself.
Have you ever murdered anyone? No? Jesus said if you had hatred in your heart towards your brother, then it was the same as if you had murdered him....so we should legalize murder then, and no one should oppose it?
do you see how ridiculous this is? I can't understand how any of you folks are okay with killing of unborns. I'm waiting to hear the scripture that supports your view, no one has given 1.
Your idea that we should "refrain from throwing our religion around government" is COMPLETELY false and unbiblical. Open the bible, read about Israel. Read what happened to them every time they turned their back on God's laws, and worshipped other gods. They were turned over to destruction by enemies numerous times because of their unfaithfulness to God.
I didn't say I'm okay with the killing of unborns. I specifically said I'm against abortion.
I'm saying you let one religion have power, you're opening the door for other religions to take that power.
I am a Confessional Lutheran and I am voting for Barack Obama.
This is a nice post, but it doesn't give you any reasons to vote for Obama.
When you're selling a product, it's more desirable to talk about your product than the competition. Your article is titled "Why you should vote for Obama" -- so McCain is mentioned 9 times (in fact, was the main point of the article), Palin 4 times, and Obama once (excluding the title). By doing this, you're keeping the focus on McCain. :)
[for the record, I'm a agnostic-borderline-athiest, pro-choice republican who voted libertarian.]
Nice to meet you, and thanks for the suggestions. Perhaps I should have
named it "Reasons why evangelical Christians should not vote for John
McCain" But...it seemed like it was way too long of a title. :)
Michelle
A recovering Baptist
If you do you are not a christian or evangelical for that matter how could you!
what you're suffering from right now.
I'll be voting McCain/Palin all the way
And I encourage you to read my blog supporting this on my myspace page at
http://www.myspace.com/jd_mcpherson
I would like your incite...there is so much more than just abortion and gay rights...I'm not so narrow minded to only vote on one issue or two.
Get educated and read your Bibles :)
Now I know we cannot and should not judge a man heart, but if when God himself was choosing a leader even God wanted one who would best represent him.
We can only go by voting records....although very limited on Obama's "present" record.
There is a reason Planned Parenthood gives him a 100% rating. There is a reason the homosexual community supports him. There is a reason Ahmadinejad, Chavez, Castro, Hamas etc. love him. There is a reason he said he would nominate liberal judges to the Supreme Court. There is a reason he voted against the infanticide bill. There is a reason he voted No on the constitutional ban of smae-sex marriage. There is a reason he voted No on banning partial birth abortion. There is a reason he voted No on confirming Justices Roberts and Alito. These two judges are conservatives and they have since overturned partial birth abortion. The same practice Obama wanted to continue.
I know McCain is not perfect, but he best represents the morals and values all Christians hold dear. And yes, he, just like King David, is not perfect, but I choose character over charisma.
Palin is a very Godly woman who has been scorned and ridiculed for her religious convictions. Again,she is not perfect, but it has been prophesied that she is a present day Esther.
God bless them both!
me and how much I could talk about my wonderful Saviour, you would know that it
could have been a lot longer...you might want to get a drink or take a potty
break now... :)
Why Christians really need to pray and seek God’s guidance on who to vote for.
Matthew 16:26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet
forfeits his soul?
Now I know we are not electing a priest, but a President. BUT Even God had guidelines when choosing a king for Israel. The Lord sought “a man after His own heart” 1 Samuel 13:14
Now I know we cannot and should not judge a man heart, but if when God himself was choosing a leader even God wanted one who would best represent him. We should do the same.
McCain, iust like King David, is not perfect, but he best represents the morals and values that all Christians should hold dear. I choose character over charisma; conscious over convenience.
We can only go by voting records....although very limited on Obama's "present" record.
If you do not care what the Bible says then don't bother reading, but when you
stand before God ignorance will not be an excuse. You were presented with the
information and chose to ignore it.
If you are offended by this, I apologize, but you need to seek out your own
heart and your own motives for your support of a man who defies Biblical
principles and morals. I will not judge you nor do I wish to loose any friends
over this - Luke 6:27. But Christians will give an account to God for service
to Christ. He will reward his servants for faithful service. This is not meant
to divide the church, but for us to unite as one body and let our voice be
heard. Luke 11:17 "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a
house divided against itself will fall. “
If you want to challenge me, your comments and opinions are welcome. But I do
not expect anyone who is not a Christian to have understanding of Godly
principles, therefore your arguments really wouldn’t be fair to you, but I’m
more than happy to go more in depth if needed. Romans 8:31
But know my heart which again, is not to judge, but to educate many people who
simply DON’T KNOW who Barrack Obama is or what the Bible says about the issues
he’s strongly supports. I have done hours and hours of research on him and feel
compelled to get this information to my fellow Christian friends. Jesus said in
Matthew, “Go into all the world and preach and publish openly the good news (the
Gospel) to every creature. That’s what I feel I am doing. Of course I am
putting a political spin on this, but please, this is a very important election.
We are God’s vessels on Earth. We are the body of Christ. We must allow God to
work through us to put His will in place on Earth. We cannot simply pray God’s
will on the Earth, yet oppose it in our actions. It is our responsibility to
put Christ first in every decision we make. This is especially true when
choosing a leader.
John 8:32 And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free. These
words of Jesus, quoted famously by Martin Luther King are liberating. I can’t
keep silent. I have to tell the truth. I have been ridiculed, scorned,
insulted, hurt, crushed by “friends” but that is in no comparison to what others
have suffered for “telling the truth”. I am reminded by those closest to me,
who know my heart and know my intentions, that if I have enemies over this it is
because I stood up for what is right.
If you want to encourage me your comments are even more welcome. Galatians 6:9
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we
faint not. Also, Isaiah 40:31 – Go CFCA Eagles ;)
I hate to cherry pick scripture, but this is long enough with out me quoting
entire chapters. Feel free to go to www.biblegateway.com to research the verses
in their entirety. A lot of times there are many more "goodies” in the verses
proceeding or following. I also did not include any of the several YouTube
videos of Obama mocking the Word of God or stating his political platform on
these issues.
okay, not all... but here's one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FCNKwHRCQM
I am not the original writer on all these topics, but have compiled information
from other ministries as well as relied on my own Christian heritage. I also
use several different translations of the Bible. This is only because the
different explanations of the verses are more applicable or has more depth and
understanding to what is being discussed.
In the words of Barack Obama, “some people haven’t been readin’ their Bible” so
here goes...
Let’s start off with…
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny
before my Father which is in heaven.
Rev. 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will
spew thee out of my mouth.
Luke 16:13 No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love
the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
So in essence, it is our responsibility as Christians to stand up for what God’s
word says, and that is all I’m doing…
The Bible on…
GODLY JUDGEMENT AND MORAL DECISIONS
Joshua 24:15 ...but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have
rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored
the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.”
Duet. 11:8 Therefore shall ye keep all the commandments which I command you this
day, that ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble
themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then
will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Verse 22 'Because they have forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers, who
brought them out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving
them—that is why he brought all this disaster on them.' "
But for those of you who need more convincing, here is what the Bible says on
many specific topics being discussed by the politicians...
TOLERANCE
Even Aristotle expressed, “Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying
society'
Obama ridicules the Sermon on the Mount, which he also uses to support his
tolerance on gay marriage, abortion, etc. As Christians we should love the
sinner, but not condone the sin. God loves the sinners and the backsliders, but
they must repent and turn from sin.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
James 4:4 Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God?
Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of
God.
Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savior,
wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast
out, and to be trodden under foot of men
In Luke 11:23 Jesus was speaking “He who is not with Me [siding and believing
with Me] is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me [engage in My
interest], scatters.”
If we are Christians we should be set apart, different from the rest of the
world. We are God’s peculiar people (Titus 2:14, 1 Peter 2:9).
We are to be in the world, but not of the world. This means Believers in Jesus
Christ are simply in the world—physically present—but not of it, not part of its
values (John 17:14-15). As believers, we should be set apart from the world.
This is the meaning of being holy and living a holy, righteous life—to be set
apart. We are not to engage in the sinful activities the world promotes, nor are
we to retain the insipid, corrupt mind that the world creates. Rather, we are to
conform ourselves, and our minds, to that of Jesus Christ (Romans 12:1-2). This
is a daily activity and commitment.
If we are in the mainstream or the majority of what the world views as correct,
it is a safe assumption that it is not of God. For example if we are supporting
a man who is predominantly supported by worldly people, how are we, as
Christians, setting ourselves apart from the world? I’m not saying that there
aren’t any worldly people who support McCain, but you’re smart enough to know
where the majority are leaning. This alone should put up a red-flag to
Christians everywhere. If the ‘world” is for it, you should be against it.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the
renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and
perfect, will of God.
WAR
Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time
for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil
(Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but
all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but
neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over
them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in
a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the
safety of our military, praying for a quick resolution to the conflict, and
praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians
4:6-7).
"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and
defend it." Daniel Webster
Also, Winston Churchill said, “Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed
to repeat it. “
I think Sarah Palin put it best ”let us not pray that God is on our side in a
war or any other time, but let us pray that we are on God's side.”
THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS
Luke 11:21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions
are safe.”
Now Jesus did say in Mathew 26:52 "for all who draw the sword will die by the
sword.” Or in other words if you live by the sword, you die by the sword.
There is a difference between living by the sword and defending one’s self.
Remember the great King David. As a boy he defended his father’s sheep against
a lion and then a bear. He later came to the rescue of the Israelites and
defeated Goliath with his sling.
We need "Crime control," not Gun control. Many well intentioned folks still
believe that gun control legislation will reduce crime and will make our streets
and cities safer. Not true. "Guns don't kill people, people do." Where guns are
outlawed, only the criminals have guns. Neither do statistics support such
idealism. As an example, Washington DC has some of the toughest gun control laws
in the nation, yet it is consistently at or near the top for gun-related
killings. Gun control laws simply do not stop criminals. Think about it. Would a
person about to commit a felony care about committing a misdemeanor (i.e. having
an unregistered gun) too?
Statistics support the fact that there is less crime in areas where citizens can
and do carry concealed weapons.
The NRA of America sites several times Obama opposed Right to carry laws or
supported local gun bans. Some friends say that it has been the goal of
democrats to ban guns for a while and have never achieved it, but there has
always been checks and balances. If we elect a democrat as president with
majority in the house and senate being democrat, then they will be able to pass
through their agenda on an array of controversial issues.
CREATIONISM
Ummm…Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth… really
need I say more.
Obama’s opinion on teaching Creationism according to a quote by the York Daily
Record, “I’m a Christian, and I believe in parents being able to provide
children with religious instruction without interference from the state. But I
also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I
believe in evolution, and I believe there’s a difference between science and
faith. That doesn’t make faith any less important than science. It just means
they’re two different things. And I think it’s a mistake to try to cloud the
teaching of science with theories that frankly don’t hold up to scientific
inquiry.”
Regarding evolution and creation education the soon-to-be governor of Alaska,
Sarah Palin, said in a 2006 gubernatorial debate, "Teach both. You know, don’t
be afraid of education. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in
schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."
If you want to get technical or “scientific” they are both just theories so why
are evolutionist so scared of creationism?
WELFARE
I Timothy 5:8, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of
his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”
2 Thess. 3:10 "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."
There is a difference between “will not” work and “can not” work, but most are
. will not" and have become lazy. Government should strengthen the hand of
the poor not weaken it by making people dependant on it.
LAZINESS
The Proverbs especially are filled with wisdom concerning laziness and warnings
to the lazy person. They tell us that a lazy person hates work: “The sluggard's
craving will be the death of him, because his hands refuse to work.” (21:25); he
loves sleep: “As a door turns on its hinges, so a sluggard turns on his bed.”
(26:14); he gives excuses: “The sluggard says, ‘There is a lion in the road, a
fierce lion roaming the streets!’” (26:13); he wastes time and energy: “He who
is slothful in his work is a brother to him who is a great waster” (18:9);
Proverbs also tells us the end in store for the lazy: A lazy person becomes a
servant (or debtor): “Diligent hands will rule, but laziness ends in slave
labor” (12:24); his future is bleak: “A sluggard does not plow in season; so at
harvest time he looks but finds nothing” (20:4);
TAXES
Romans 13:5-7 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only
because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why
you pay taxes, for the authorities are servants, who give their full time to
governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if
revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (If
Credit cards, then credit cards; if car notes, then car notes…okay so
embellished a bit…)
The Bible didn’t say that last part, but it does say in Romans 13:8 Keep out of
debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another…
He wants us to be good stewards of all He has given us.
http://www.lifeinjesus.org/art_owenoman.html
The bible also says in Mathew 22:21 “Render therefore unto Caesar the things
which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.”
TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 states that one-tenth of all that comes into your
possession, belongs to God. This was God's plan to instruct His people as to the
way of blessings that He had for them. God is a multiplier by nature, and He
could not multiply that which was not entrusted to Him. When the children of
Israel were obedient to give back to God that which was His, increase was
guaranteed. Scripture states, It's better to be obedient than to sacrifice. When
the children of Israel were obedient, blessings came; when they were
disobedient, they had to sacrifice. Many Christians today want God to honor the
covenant that He has with His children, but disobedient children cannot receive
the same reward as the obedient.
Malachi 3:8 asks the question "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye
say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a
curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation."
2 Corinthians 9:7 expresses how God loves a cheerful giver.
Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and
shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2....
htm
According to USA Today the Obama’s earned $4,238,165.00 and made $240,370.00 in
charitable donations (about 5%).
John McCain earned $405,409.00 and made $105,476.00 to charity (over 25%).
GAY MARRIAGE
First we have to remember what the Bible says about homosexuality. While the
Bible doesn’t address the concept of gay or same sex marriage, the Bible does
clearly and consistently tell us that homosexual activity is a sin and an
abomination(Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians
6:9). There is a lot more about homosexuality pertaining to generational
curses on YouTube. “Grace to Overcome Generational Curses” Bridget Hilliard.
What a blessing and an understanding as to why the world is getting worse.
I urge all Floridians to vote “YES” on amendment #2.
In Massachusetts and California where gay marriage is legal they have already
infiltrated the school down to the kindergarten level. Sending home “diversity
packets” to condone homosexuality as young as five years old with NO parental
notification. First graders went on a field trip to see a lesbian marriage
ceremony. This is unacceptable and should grieve any parent. Not just
Christians. If they concentrated more on teaching the basics instead of all
this “extra-curricular” information maybe the state of our education system
wouldn’t be such a joke.
ABSTINENCE
Along with all other kinds of sexual immorality, sex before marriage /
premarital sex is repeatedly condemned in Scripture (Acts 15:20; Romans 1:29; 1
Corinthians 5:1; 6:13,18; 7:2; 10:8; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19;
Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3;Jude 7). The Bible promotes
abstinence before marriage. Sex before marriage is just as wrong as adultery and
other forms of sexual immorality, because they all involve having sex with
someone you are not married to. Sex between a husband and his wife is the only
form of sexual relations that God approves of (Hebrews 13:4).
Now I’m not condemning Sex Education at an age appropriate level, but why are we
allowing the Democrats to lower our standards and not even teach abstinence?
McCain and Palin are strong advocates of teaching abstinence in schools.
SEX EDUCATION to 5 year olds
Okay so the Bible doesn’t actually say anything about teaching sex ed. to little
one’s but 1 Peter 5:8 warns: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the
devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” Who is
more susceptible than our children? I urge you to read the proposed manual
supported by Obama. Thank God it did not pass, but it speaks to the mind and
heart of a man who would support it.
To read the manual for yourself go to:
www.siecus.org/_data/global/images/guidelines.pdf
Might I point out a few pages for you :)
Pg. 17 - sets up the levels - level1 5-8 yr olds
Pg. 25 - Reproductive and Sexual Anatomy and Physiology -Developmental Messages
- I was ok with this until the last point - remember these are 5 year olds.
Pg. 26 - Reproduction - Vaginal Intercourse - defined
Pg. 29 - Sexual Orientation - now I'm no homophobe, but this is completely
inappropriate for small children
Pg. 39 - Marriage and Lifetime Commitments - again w/ the homosexuality...
Pg. 51 - Sexuality Throughout Life - this will only encourage exploration!
Pg. 51 - Masturbation - Defined and told to do in private.
Pg. 52 - Shared Sexual Behavior - it is actually level 3 that talks about oral
and anal sex to 12-15 year olds as an alternative to vaginal intercourse.
Pg. Pg. 54 - Human Sexual Response
Pg. 61 - Abortion - completely inappropriate
Pg. 63 - STDs - again these are 5-8 year olds...
Pg. 65 - AIDS
Now my Bible says in Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are
true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever
things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good
report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these
things.
Proverbs 4:23 Keep and guard your heart with all vigilance and above all that
you guard.
INFANCIDE
This goes to the 10 Commandments. Thou shalt not kill. On three separate
occasions Obama refused to support the Born Alive Act while in the Illinois
State Senate, which protected babies born alive from a botched abortion. These
babies were left to die. This is infancide!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4B3O9uUc-4
ABORTION
Hosea 13:16; 2 Kings 8:12 -- When children or infants are dashed to pieces, it
is a great tragedy to any nation. Yet unborn babies are children or infants, and
in our nation they are dashed to pieces by the millions! Psalm 127:3-5; 128:3-5
-- Children are a blessing, a source of happiness and joy to their parents. Yet
unborn babies are children, so parents ought to appreciate them as a blessing
from God. People who have Scriptural attitudes will never kill unborn babies
because they will never want to. Abortion is the grossest form of ingratitude
for God's blessing. Proverbs 22:6; Ephesians 6:4 -- God has made us stewards of
our children. A steward is a person who has been entrusted with something that
belongs to someone else. He is responsible to care for that item and use it to
accomplish the purpose of the one to whom it belongs. He will be condemned and
punished by the owner or master if he abuses or misuses that which has been
entrusted to him (Luke 12:42-46; Matt. 25:14-30; I Cor. 4:2). An unborn child is
a particular blessing that has been given into our care just as surely as is a
child that has been born. We have the same God-given duty toward an unborn child
as we do toward one that has been born. If we kill them, we defeat God's purpose
for their lives. How can we "train up" and "bring up" those whom we have
killed?! Abortion is the grossest form of child abuse and the most extreme
perversion of parental responsibility.
Barack Obama is quoted, when discussing Sex Education, as saying, “I don’t want
my daughters punished with a baby”. This is a grotesque interpretation of God’s
blessing.
Abortions declined 9% - more than 100,000 per year under President Bush. Obama
wants to take away limitations on abortions. Obama has pledged his loyalty to
Planned Parenthood (an organization founded by a racist woman who wanted to wipe
out the black race). Obama isn't just pro-choice. He's a pro-abortion
extremist. Through his support of the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA), Obama has
made his commitment to unrestricted abortion clear, "The first thing I'd do as
president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That's the first thing that I'd
do." -- Senator Barack Obama, speaking to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund,
July 17, 2007
In short, it will attempt to do away with any and all limits on abortions,
including partial birth abortion, age restrictions, parental consent and
notification, and waiting periods.
His defense states that limitations would only be lifted because of the “health
of the mother”. This “health risk’s” includes everything from legitimate health
issues to depression, anxiety, pretty much anything the doctor or mother deem as
a “risk”.
http://www.abortiontruth.com/
His limited voting record in the Senate already supports this extremely liberal
view on abortion. John McCain and Sarah Palin are strong supporters of Pro-Life.
When McCain was asked by Pastor Rick Warren when life began his answer was, “at
conception”. Obama’s remark was that the answer was “above my pay grade”. I
actually encourage you to watch the Rick Warren interview with both candidates.
You can search for it on YouTube.
93% of women who have an abortion regret it. Rape, incest or health risks make
up about 3% of abortions performed. The rest is just and excuse for murder for
inconvenience sake. Abortion is being used as birth control and that is murder!
People need to take personal responsibility and learn that there are
consequences to their behavior, whether good or bad.
A baby is not a punishment as Obama puts it, but the result of the action (sex)
which it was designed for (reproduction). There is no accident – that’s sex’s
purpose. There is no “unwanted pregnancy” somebody wants that baby. Just
because the mother doesn’t care for the baby doesn’t mean no one wants it. Some
adoption lists are 7 years long costing wanting families $1,000s of dollars.
Women do have a choice; abstinence, birth control, adoption, etc. Murder should
not be one of the choices.
CHILDREN OF GOD
We are not "All children of God" as Obama claims. We can be if we accept Jesus
Christ as our Lord and Savior.
The Chicago Sun Times quotes Obama as saying, “I’m rooted in the Christian
tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a
belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.
That there are values that transcend race or culture, that move us forward, and
there’s an obligation for all of us individually as well as collectively to take
responsibility to make those values lived.”
Here’s a quote from the AP on 3-27-08
During a campaign stop in Greensboro, North Carolina, Senator Obama told the
audience that he believes he “can have everlasting life” because Jesus Christ
died for his sins. But he then told a questioner that he believes Jews and
Muslims who live moral lives are just as much “children of God” as he is.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
to the Father except through me."
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name
under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Call me extreme, but I guess I’m one of those rare Christians that actually
believes the Bible! If one does not accept His son, Jesus, then they will go to
hell. :0) God loves everyone, but that's the facts, my friend. I hope you
choose life and life more abundantly :)
John 10:10 Jesus said, The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and
to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it
more abundantly.
So in summation, when you support a man for president you are supporting his
causes. You may not agree with them, but you ARE supporting them, especially
when the candidate wants to use government funding for his immoral causes. For
example, even if you oppose abortion, by voting for a man who supports it, his
will on the matter will be acted out and you, the taxpayer, will be paying for
it.
I don’t disagree that many of my friends would benefit from his promised
tax-cut. But are you willing to sell your soul for a buck? One friend said
about Proverbs 13:22 The wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.
This struck me as wrong from the beginning and the more I prayed about it the
more I disagree with this verse trying to justify the actions of Obama’s tax
plan. First of all, not everyone who makes $250,000.00 or more is a sinner or
wicked. Secondly, not everyone benefiting from the tax cut/credit/whatever you
want to call it is righteous. Thirdly, I don’t really see God supporting a “rob
from Peter to pay Paul scheme”.
Charles Barkley is quoted as saying, "poor people having been voting for
Democrats for the last 50 years....and they are still poor."
I’ve had friends tell me I am insensitive to the needs of poor people, which
just cracks me up since I was “the poor people” for many years. The difference
is, and I thank God for it, that my family depended on God. Phillipians 4:19
My God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ
Jesus. (Now, Jeremy, Rock Band and a new PSP is not a necessity no matter how much you want it) My parents didn’t talk the talk and not walk the walk. God provided.
And if we are truly dependant on God why would we tie his hands by voting for a
man that contradicts the Bible. So we get a few extra dollars from the
government? I would much rather be blessed by God and his infinite wealth and
wisdom than by the limitations of the government. God will provide. The
government has taken away the role of the church and families when helping
people. God has specific instructions in the Bible on how the poor are to be
helped. When politicians presume to know more than God we are living in scary
times.
Some argue that because I’m not black I couldn’t understand the plight of the
black man. And they are right, just like they can’t understand the plight of a
white woman. I know this is an amazing election for black people, but that
doesn't make him the right choice. Excuse my naivety, but if you are a
Christian this should not be about race or gender or whatever many are making it
out to be. God’s word doesn’t apply to only white people or only black people.
He is GOD. His word applies to everyone. God is no respecter of persons Romans 2:11.
Now you can choose to go against the Bible, the WORD OF GOD, and vote for Obama,
who opposes the Bible on so many issues. This is based on his voting records,
his agenda for his presidency and direct quotes from Obama. You can sugarcoat it
as much as you want and try to explain his horrific actions, but the facts are
the facts. You might say he's just trying to appeal to more voters, but that
does not cause you to have the reputation of the furthest 'Left" views in the
senate, even worse than Ted Kennedy.
To beat Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton as the most liberal senator, takes some doing. Obama accomplished this feat in 2 short years. I wonder what would happen to America if he had four years to work with?
Don't think I am so narrow minded that I buy into the whole "Obama is a Muslim"
propaganda. Even if he was, if he has accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior,
that is between him and God. I will not judge, but I will question the "Lord"
part, again based on his voting record and direct quotes. I don't agree with
his many questionable relationships with racists, extremists, radical groups, or
American terrorists, but I'm not going to claim guilty by association. I do
however, question his judgement call on the relationships and his being very
comfortable with and length of relationships with some reproachable characters. But what actually concerns me more is why are these kinds of people so drawn to him? Think about it!
There is a reason Planned Parenthood gives him a 100% rating. There is a reason the homosexual community supports him. There is a reason Ahmadinejad, Chavez, Castro, Hamas etc. love him. There is a reason he said he would nominate liberal judges to the Supreme Court. There is a reason he voted against the infanticide bill. There is a reason he voted No on the constitutional ban of smae-sex marriage. There is a reason he voted No on banning partial birth abortion. There is a reason he voted No on confirming Justices Roberts and Alito. These two judges are conservatives and they have since overturned partial birth abortion. The same practice Obama wanted to continue.
I’m not saying he has not done any good for the community. But the actions
contrary to the Bible far outweighs what good he has done. Nor am I saying I
agree with everything McCain has done. He is not perfect and I do not agree
with every policy or vote on every issue, but I could not find anywhere that he
has completely opposed the moral values that I and all Christians should hold
dear. He did strengthen the virtue of his ticket by adding Sarah Palin. The
fact that she is so hated by the liberal feminist and the mainstream media
because she stands up for her moral convictions, tells me she is doing something
right. She is described by many believers as a present day Esther. I strongly
encourage you to read the story of Esther and Deborah. And I implore her
doubters to look into all she has accomplished. She has done so much for the
state of Alaska and got rid of the corrupt politicians. This is the change we
need. The Bible says seek and you shall find. The truth about these candidates
isn’t going to fall into your lap. Do not depend on the news media to cover the
story in full. Do your own research with non-bias coverage. The truth is so
refreshing.
Anyways, my motto is and will continue to be God, Country, Family. If you put
God first you will make the right decision. Secondly, love your neighbor as
yourself. When you put the welfare of the country ahead of your own selfish
needs you are serving the good of the country as a whole and you will reap the
benefits thereof. Last is family. Again, I don’t disagree with the assumption
that some will benefit from the promised tax cut. Keep in mind though, the odds
are that this is just a promise by another in a long line of Democrats who
promised tax cuts and didn’t come through. Cutting taxes would go against his
record. He’s never once voted to cut taxes only to raise taxes. And the
minorities in his beloved Chicago complain about the tax burden he and fellow
democrats created in Illinois.
You may argue that you supported or didn’t support Bush for the last eight
years, and refuse to support another Republican, but McCain is not Bush. No
matter who you vote for, you will get CHANGE and history will be made. And,
again you may say I look at the glass as half full, but really no one knows, it
could have been worse with Kerry or Gore. Everyone wants to blame the President
for all the problems; ignoring the fact that he can’t accomplish anything
without the support of the House and Senate, the majority of which are
Democrats. I’m not putting blame on the Democrats or the Republicans for the
current situation…actually I blame both. People had the opportunity to stand up
for what was right and they either didn’t or the allowed others to drown them
out. That is why it is so important for us to follow the Bible’s instruction
and pray for our leaders. No matter what party they are affiliated with. 1
Timothy 2:1-3.
But anyways who are you going to put first? God and where he stands on matters
pertaining to your family or your family. In these economic times I realize it
is hard to not choose family, but if you don’t put God first there will be
repercussions. Not only in the Bible, but with Godly people everywhere, I’ve
seen time and time again God rewards the faithfulness of His people.
Luke 16:13 No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love
the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot
serve both God and Money.
Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve…but as for me
and my household, we will serve the LORD."
I pray you vote based on your conscience and not your convenience.
Danae McPherson
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”
Sent via BlackBerry, a miracle invented by John McCain.
Sent via BlackBerry, a miracle invented by John McCain.
Your arguments are self-serving and disingenuous. This may shock you, but
one can be pro-choice and pro-life. All life.
You accuse me of intellectual dishonesty in the same paragraph that you
justify the murder of thousands of Iraqis and US troops? Wow, don't even try
to take me down the thought pathways you had to endure to get to that point.
For you, the government is the ultimate judge. For me, it's God. I'm willing
to live in a world where people have choices, just as Jesus also offered us
a choice, for the right to stand before God in the end and say that I worked
to reach out to those in need rather than subject them to condemnation on
earth, as you wish to do.
Good day.
My arguments are not self-serving, and are not disingenuous in the least. I could not be more clear and fair. You accuse simply because you disagree.
It's interesting that you can infer from my short comment above that for me "government is the ultimate judge." This is ludicrous because 1) the legality or illegality of abortion does not change my views of it, and 2) you have no basis to make such a reckless assumption of someone you don't know. I am in fact quite an individualist/libertarian.
In reference to abortion, you assert the live/let live argument, which only works when presented from a humanistic perspective. You, however, make this argument while professing some form of Christian faith, which puts you in a strange no-man's land of rational thought. IF you profess to be Christian, then you must believe the Bible. IF you believe the Bible, then you must agree that God recognizes life at conception because He says so in Jeremiah 1:15. IF you believe, like God, that a fetus is a person, then this person falls into the unfortunate category of not having an advocate. It's not about having the "constitution and government out of your vagina," it's about the rights of the weak and defenseless, for which Jesus was the greatest advocate. Following your line of reasoning, we should not prosecute any crimes on Earth, but instead wait for our judgment in the afterlife. Maybe you should tell us, what crimes, in your opinion, should be prosecuted on Earth, and which in heaven? And how do you decide?
In conclusion, there is nothing in either of my comments that is condemning, as you say, unless of course you think asserting the Bible is 'condemning.'
nothing. You cite Jeremiah; I cite Jesus' command in Matthew 15. If that
makes me a moral relativist by some bizarre twist of fate, so be it.
In the other thread you stated:
"for me, it all comes down to the one
that He gave in John 15: Love one another. Period. That's it. It supercedes
all of the others. Love. one. another."
I didn't see anything in John 15 that supports your belief that Jesus' command to love supercedes any other scripture. Funny, your Bible must only be one chapter long. Mine is over 2200 pages long. Neither Jesus, nor Paul or any of the apostles, nor any credible theologian today or of any other time would agree that this command you speak of negates even one single word in the rest of the Bible. In many circles you would be considered an 'a la carte Christian,' or someone who chooses only to practice those parts of the Bible which are palatable to them. If your Bible had more than one chapter, you could see that Jesus did address this belief in Matthew:
"17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven"
Surely in your Bible, Paul doesn't address beliefs like yours In Romans 6:
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"
It IS possible to observe the command to Love while observing the rest of the Gospel, in fact it's mandatory. Nobody said it was easy. Jesus was killed because he made an 'intolerant' stand. he didn't rationalize worldly behavior or placate his enemies. I think you're under the illusion that to disagree with one's behavior is to condemn them. It is not. I am not against homosexuals, I am not against a balanced educational curriculum for our kids. Abortion is different than the other issues discussed in this forum because it involves an innocent, defenseless victim. Now I have genuine love and compassion for every human being on the earth, especially children. For these reasons, I could never, ever, EVER condone legalized abortion.
Now, if your only response is for me to "See my reply to your other message," then save your keystrokes. If you dismiss me as intolerant or condemning, I won't even bother to finish reading your response and you won't hear another word from me. If, on the other hand, you have anything intelligent to add to the fray, we can keep this thread open as long as you like.
Let me save us both the trouble. I do not agree with your tone or your interpretation. I do agree to disagree. If you leave the discussion thinking you have won something, that's fine with me. Your comments are here, anyone reading may make their own determination as to whether you have made a clear and convincing argument for your position and vice versa.
At the end of it all we will know whether we are both right, one is right, or we're both dead wrong. In the meantime we're both going to look ourselves in the mirror and accept what stares back.
Thank you for your comments.
Sent via BlackBerry
I apologize if my tone was belittling or condescending. I did get a little passionate. Your logic is a bit flawed, but you show some critical thinking, you make intelligent arguments, and I encourage you to continue searching for truth; the truth of your God and savior, and I assure you I will do the same.
How do you NOT draw a moral equivalency between 2M babies and 2K soldiers? Do you honestly believe that one is ok to kill and the other isn't? Or are Iraqis only worth 3/5ths of an fetus? Seriously - did Jesus really draw distinction between the loss of ANY life.
If you cannot use your faith to reconcile yourself to the world, then what is the use of your faith? That's the whole POINT of religion - to make sense of a world that makes no sense - not to use religious texts to cherry pick "proof" for opinions that you want to pass off as God's.
(all typos the fault of posting by blackberry)
First off, my argument regarding the unjust war in Iraq was NOT in support of it. My argument addressed the logical duality of supporting abortion fights while condemning the war in Iraq. If you gave my comment anything more than a cursory glance you would see that at no point did I ever voice support of it.
So, you concede that "God creates babies and Jesus liked them, too." The only operable concept here is that babies still in the womb are indeed babies. As much as you are trying to pull this off topic, this discussion is whether or not Christians can morally justify their support of abortion rights, and so far the argument in favor of that is thin.
"If you cannot use your faith to reconcile yourself to the world, then what is the use of your faith? That's the whole POINT of religion"
This is a false statement where the Christian faith is concerned. I'll let Jesus' words answer you:
John15: 18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."
As you can see, we Christians are NOT to reconcile ourselves to secular institutions, though in other places Jesus did acknowledge civic duties like paying taxes and obeying human rulers. This is one of the most significant and relevant statements Jesus ever made. Jesus was no populist. He was no demagogue. His only agenda was doing God's work.
I agree that the whole of the Bible should not be taken literally. (After all, Paul did say it was an abomination for women to speak in church, did he not?) Instead, it's a good practice in Bible study to accept concepts and doctrine that are agreed upon in no less than two places in the Bible, but preferably three. I am not "cherry picking," and how closed-minded of you to accuse me of it. In no circumstances would I classify the Bible as "mystical."
your pronouncements are.
When I am in that voting room I will take the time to pray for you as I vote for John McCain.
I will not vote for someone who wants to be sworn in under the Koran.
that aren't true? Maybe we do need an intelligence test to vote...you
obviously forgot that facts actually do matter. Even John McCain wouldn't
speak the lie you just did.
response.
BTW... supposing that he did choose to be sworn in on the Koran, why would that disqualify him?
Reasons Why Evangelicals SHOULD Vote for Obama
If you are really pro-life, you will not support Obama. Obama has, at every turn possible, made clear his intention to keep abortion as legal. If your reason to not support McCain is "because he is not pro-life", then you should also not support Obama.
http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2...
influencing my community to reject abortion as an option, not to put the
constitution and government in my vagina. Your indictment is the same as me
saying this:
IF you were really pro-life, you will not support McCain. McCain has, at
every turn possible, made clear his intention to murder and maim Iraqis,
Afghanis, and Iranians without compunction.
That statement is obviously as ridiculous as yours. But for the record, I
don't support McCain because he lied consistently throughout his campaign,
sold out his ethics and honor to get elected, and has no real solutions for
the economic crisis we are in.
As for the Right to Life issue, you need to thank John McCain (and certainly not Obama) that he and others fought so that you and I have the right to express our views as we are doing right now. Freedom always comes with a price.
It has just been announced that Obama is our next president. My comfort and hope lie not in him, but in the fact that this occurence has been sifted through our sovereign God's hands....and may He have mercy on us all.
As to thanking, McCain for his service, yes, we should thank all of our solider Sadly, very few people in the bush administration defended our rights on the field of battle. Here's a partial list - George W. Bush, Andy Card, Karl Rove, John Ashcroft, Don Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Dick Cheney, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Brit Hume, William Bennet, Bill Kristol...THESE are people who could have served and chose not to. THESE are the people that sent our sons and daughters into a war without knowing first hand the actual hell of war.
Hastert, Gingrich, Lott, Delay
McCain was also pro-abortion before burying his beliefs to appease the far right wing of the party and radical small-c christians. Sorry. That's just a fact.
Perhaps you should stopping lying about the log in your own eye first.
God loves you....God bless